Ep. 58: Abby Wynne – Shamanic Way of Healing in Challenging Times

We all remember 2020, don’t we?

How could we forget days that turned into weeks that turned into months and then into years of fear, confusion, anger, mistrust, and doubts. Some people coped better, other people not so well. That situation forced all of us to sit with our feelings, thoughts, and loneliness.

To say that it was difficult is an understatement. While I was observing this craziness I couldn’t help but say quite a few times: “All people around the world are experiencing very similar things that injured people go through every day.”

When you injure yourself – especially if we talk about serious injuries – your life changes from one day to another. You cannot do things you love to do, you cannot move freely, and you’re not suffering just physically but psychologically as well. These are challenging times.

But even when people are forced to be still, they still don’t like looking inside themselves, and it’s because it can be a messy place. But it’s also the place where most answers and most healing comes from. So even if it’s messy, it can be so worth it. It really helps having some sort of guidance and this can come in a form of another person, or it can be a higher power, or even simple faith. Actually, what works best for many people is a mix of all three.

That guidance can be another person, or it can be a higher power, or even simple faith. Or a mix of all three – which is what this interview with Abby Wynne, a healer who blends shamanism, psychotherapy, and energy healing, is all about.

In this healing talk, you’ll discover:

  • What shamanism is and how it can help you on this recovery journey.
  • Which techniques to use to help your body heal effortlessly.
  • What is the difference between sadness and depression and how knowing this can change everything for you.
  • How to address your emotional healing when you experience injury or trauma, particularly if you are feeling sad and/or depressed.

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Show notes & links

The show notes are written in chronological order

00:00 – excerpt from the episode
00:48 – intro (listen to discover a little more about your host. Martin will tell you a new lesser-known fact about Dr. Maya)

01:24
Dr. Maya Novak:
We all remember 2020, don’t we? How could we forget days that turned into weeks that turned into months and then into years of fear, confusion, anger, mistrust and doubts. Some people coped better, other people not so well. That situation forced all of us to sit with our feelings, thoughts, and loneliness. To say that it was difficult is an understatement. While I was observing this craziness I couldn’t help but say quite a few times: “All people around the world are experiencing very similar things that injured people go through every day.” When you injure yourself – especially if we talk about serious injuries – your life changes from one day to another. You cannot do things you love to do, you cannot move freely, and you’re not suffering just physically but psychologically as well. These are challenging times.
But even when people are forced to be still, they still don’t like looking inside themselves, and it’s because it can be a messy place. But it’s also the place where most answers and most healing comes from. So even if it’s messy, it can be so worth it. It really helps having some sort of guidance and this can come in a form of another person, or it can be a higher power, or even simple faith. Actualy, what works best for many people is a mix of all three. It was the beginning of 2020 when I interviewed Abby Wynne. Things were just slowly starting to happen worldwide but we had no idea how difficult it would get. So this interview that was a part of my Mindful Injury Recovery World Summit couldn’t have come at the better time back then. But even today, it’s so worthy to have all the insights and tools because as I said before, challenges are happening every single day. Please enjoy and let it help you.

03:33
Dr. Maya Novak:
In this interview, I’m joined by Abby Wynne who is a shamanic psychotherapist, best-selling author, and a healer who blends shamanism, psychotherapy, and energy healing. Abby’s powerful teachings work towards empowering individuals like you to do their inner work with strength and courage, whilst creating a structure and foundation that will guide them. Abby, thank you so much for being here.

03:58
Abby Wynne:
Oh, it’s my pleasure. It’s my pleasure to be here, and thank you for asking me.

04:02
Dr. Maya Novak:
Oh, I’m so extremely excited about this interview because shamanism and psychotherapy and the blend of everything – oh my goodness, I have a feeling that it’s going to be amazing!

04:14
Abby Wynne:
[laughs]

04:15
Dr. Maya Novak:
But be before we go into the juicy part, can you share a bit about yourself and especially what intrigued you to go into psychotherapy?

04:25
Abby Wynne:
You know, it’s very interesting, Maya, because I’ve written, I think, 10 books already about self-care – how to look after yourself. I don’t call them self-help, I call them self-care. And I’m thinking where do I go to now? What direction do I go in, and I’m unlocking the inner magic within? And I cannot unlock yours, you have to do it. It’s like – if you could imagine being in a corridor with many doors that are closed and you have to open a door and walk, then open a door and walk down. So, I’m writing a novel and I’ve already finished the first one. It’s a trilogy, and what’s really interesting is I’m going back to the way I was, only the main character isn’t me but she kind of is me, and she’s training to be a psychotherapist and realizing it’s not enough for her for what she wants to be able to do. And so as I’ve been writing about her journeys into Reiki healing, into shamanism, at the same time as studying her psychotherapy – which is what I’ve done – it’s like I’m revisiting myself in a way, and understanding more deeply why I did what I did the way that I did it. And, for me, it comes from stubbornness and a decision that I made that I will never leave a client open and raw when we end a session together. I couldn’t do that. And I also realized that I couldn’t leave somebody stuck. So, whether you’re open and raw and bleeding out everywhere with the emotion and everything, or whether you’re just not getting past a certain point, my sense was – well, with the shamanism, there’s a lot of tools - here’s the rattle, here’s the smudge. So, another stubborn idea of mine is I’m walking down the road and somebody falls down in trouble, and I say I cannot help you; I have to go home and get my medicine bag. To me, that’s like no, I can’t do that. So, I made the decision very early on in my, I suppose, spiritual life that the medicine had to be in me and not in a thing. I mean, I’m sitting here and I’m surrounded – I’ve got crystals. Oh, can I show you my dragon?

06:45
Dr. Maya Novak:
Please.

06:46
Abby Wynne:
I love my dragon. She’s helping me write my novel. Look at her!

06:49
Dr. Maya Novak:
A beautiful one.

06:51
Abby Wynne:
I have these tools, but I don’t leave pieces of myself in them. They support me. So, if somebody was to fall down in front of me, I call on my inner strength and my inner wisdom and I work with them there. And I realized that my decision to do this is solidified in me, and that amplifies that in other people that work with me. And so, let’s say, are totally different to me, but the principle is the same for you. Where your magic is different, you might like the dragon, you might prefer this guy, Yoda.

07:25
Dr. Maya Novak:
[laughs]

07:27
Abby Wynne:
Or you might like a fairy or a unicorn. Which I can tell from you, you’ve got unicorn energy around you. It’s about helping someone reach that stage where they make that decision to say, well, I’m more than just what I’m thinking about, and I need to start feeling how I feel and then getting into my wisdom and knowing. And so I – this year is 10 years since I started seeing clients professionally. And what I’m doing is moving more into the realms of knowing and feeling, which, to me, that’s what shamanism is. And then seeing the thoughts as just an aspect of who we are and not the essence of who we are, which goes against the fundamental philosophy of ‘I think therefore I am’.

08:19
Dr. Maya Novak:
Yeah.

08:19
Abby Wynne:
Doesn’t it? It’s like the opposite of that. I say, ‘I think but I feel but I am’. I am, and these are just parts of things of who I do. So, I don’t know if that answers your question, but what I’m knowing now is that I have less and less interest in attending, let’s say, a psychotherapy seminar because I don’t need to go back and experience any trauma in my life. I don’t need to bring my client back to re-experience what originally gave them the pain or post-traumatic stress disorder. I look at my client today, right now. How are you holding yourself? Your thoughts are just one part of you. But what are you feeling? How does the thought connect to the feeling? What comes first, the feeling and thought or the thought and the feeling?

09:10
Dr. Maya Novak:
Mm.

09:11
Abby Wynne:
And are you totally disconnected from your knowing? What happens is we hand our power over to authority. We become the child, and we totally disconnect from our knowing, and then we do what they tell us to do because we think and we ignore how we feel. And that’s why being here on this Summit with you is a blessing and a gift to me to be able to articulate this because we become the children and the doctors become the authority figure. We ignore our heart. We ignore our inner knowing that says it’s too much medicine, or I need to eat a yam, or I need more avocado or I need to sleep. I say but the doctor says I need to do these things, so I’m going to ignore what’s here.

09:56
Dr. Maya Novak:
Mm.

09:56
Abby Wynne:
And I’m going to do what they say. Of all the things that Deepak Chopra, and I’m not a fan, I have to say, but there is one thing that he said and I think it comes from his background as a medical doctor. Which is your ‘your body just wants to heal itself’.

10:14
Dr. Maya Novak:
Exactly.

10:15
Abby Wynne:
And the medicine does not do that for you. What the medicine does is creates a space for your body to heal. So, if your body is bombarded, let’s just say with a bacteria or with a virus or with something, and then you can take the medicine to hold that back, then your body has the chance to recover. But we are holistic beings. We need to integrate everything together. So, you’re not going to get a full solution by just going to the doctor and taking the medicine. You need to do more. And I think we’re all having our awakening now. Some of the most healing things can be to sit down and read a book of fairy tales – which I’ve just written one of those too! And remember that joy and beauty exists in the world and just start to be hopeful that you can re-experience that and give yourself something to live for, something to wat to be around for, and then that will kicks in.

11:12
Dr. Maya Novak:
I love what you just shared here because it’s so extremely important. And yes, I completely agree with you in regards to feelings and emotions and everything that is happening, especially when we are talking about injuries, when we are talking about the time after the accident because there is a lot of turmoil happening and knowing that your body wants to heal. It’s not your body working against you.

11:34
Abby Wynne:
Yes.

11:34
Dr. Maya Novak:
But it’s actually that it wants to heal, and then doing everything in your power. I really love what you mentioned that it’s not just going to the doctor’s office and then – and this is also how I think and feel – it’s like you cannot go just to the doctor’s office and then let’s just wait and hope and finger’s crossed that things are going to work out. You have to…

12:03
Abby Wynne:
No. And I was looking at your body language there, Maya. When you say about coming back to your body, and you’re even coming back to your body and saying it’s not about what the doctor’s say over there, it’s about here. We all know this but we have - as human beings, we are hardwired for fear plainly and simply because we need to know what the threat is so we can prepare ourselves to be ready for it. But when there’s so much contradiction and so much information that is not true, it’s very difficult to visualize, to know what the actual threat – I mean, if we could just know what the threat was, what the weakness to that threat was, and how to prepare ourselves against it. Even like a scary monster coming in, but he doesn’t like garlic. So, okay, great, we’ll get the garlic and we’re not going to worry about him because we have the garlic, right.

13:00
Dr. Maya Novak:
Yes.

13:01
Abby Wynne:
But I also have a background in science. I have a Master’s degree in Science. So, what I learned during my time in science was how to think like a scientist, yes. But something else that’s not as well known, which is science – really, the results of science is based on who is funding the research, and it’s shocking but it is true. So, let’s take something that’s not even to do with medicine. Let’s say the milk board wants you to buy cow’s milk and they do the research, and they fund the science that comes up and says, look, cow’s milk is good for you. So then, the vegans have to get their money together and fund their scientists to prove that cow’s milk is bad for you. Now you have two opposing scientific viewpoints, which have been done in a laboratory, which have been done specifically. And then you’re wondering, okay, well, I was happier with the monster who doesn’t like garlic because that’s really straightforward. But now I have all these scientists telling me completely different things. I don’t know what is true.

14:08
Dr. Maya Novak:
And it’s a jungle.

14:09
Abby Wynne:
And it’s a jungle. And this goes for any diagnosable illness because big pharma – I’m going to push this tablet. And the other, well, it’s this tablet. Well, I say no, it’s no tablet. And then they say, well, you’re crazy, you don’t know anything. And we’re so stressed out because we’ve handed our authority to these guys but they’re not telling us truths, and we know that. I think that that stress, the actual stress of being disempowered in your healing process flattens your immune system. So, whatever you’ve been diagnosed with, the stress increases all of the hormonal systems and you’re fighting that on top of everything else, and it’s exhausting.

14:52
Dr. Maya Novak:
Can we talk a bit more about this? First, about fear because fear is such an extremely common emotion when it comes to healing after an injury – fear of re-injury, fear of what if something happens, fear of what if I’m not going to heal, fear of everything. And then also in regards to stress and how do we actually then tune into relaxation and ease in a very stressful situation, so to say.

15:27
Abby Wynne:
Your energy is just so beautiful. I’m sitting here and you’re asking me these things, and I can see immediately where you are. All those things that you just said about what you’re thinking, I’m not going to get better, it’s going to happen again, is a mental thing. But what we haven’t mentioned yet is our ability to be empathic, which means we pick up from the surroundings emotions from other people. So, I’m going to explain it like this. Let’s say your weakness right now is your illness, whatever that might be. No matter who’s listening, no matter what illness you have, it’s a weakness – a mental weakness because that’s the kick-starting, like the domino effect of all the thoughts. This thought starts this thought, starts this thought, and then you’re gone. So, you are actually looking, tuning into that fear with your thoughts and then as an empath, basically as a person, you’re feeling the fear that’s around you, and that’s amplifying the thoughts, which are amplifying the fear, which is amplifying the thoughts. So, you create the cycle. For me, where I’m working with energy, and I’m working with thoughts, and I’m working with feelings, I think if you see your thoughts as lots of different animals. If you like dogs, maybe they’re all different types of dogs running around in a garden going crazy. You’ve got the ‘I’m never going to get better' dog that’s going around and around in circles. You’ve got the ‘I’m going to die’ dog that’s just putting his head down there. And you can imagine a whole garden full of these, and these are in your out of control and you’ve no energy left. What I see, is okay, somebody has to go into that garden and bring them all to order.

17:25
Dr. Maya Novak:
Mhm.

17:25
Abby Wynne:
So, that has to be the adult you. Everybody works with their inner child, everybody knows about their inner child. But we also have an inner team, we have an inner trench hero, and we have the responsible adult that we are right now. So, connecting in, and if you’re watching this now and you’re feeling like you’d like to try this, connect into the responsible adult you right now, and imagine that you’re going out into that garden with all of your dog thoughts – or whatever animal you prefer – and you’re going to say, okay, everybody look at me right now. And all the eyes come to you, and for a moment, they all just stop running around. You need to take that energy to be present, to say, right, before we do anything about all of you – me talking to the dogs – you’re all real and you’re all valid. Okay, maybe some of them aren’t as valid as others, but you picked it up from somewhere. So, no animal in that garden is a mistake, but I’m feeling too much fear right now. I’m not able to deal with all of this. So, will you come with me and help bridge all the weaknesses in my physical body. Clear the energy connection that I have to fear and solidify that first. Then when I’m feeling just like you said, more balanced, more centered and calmer because I’m only feeling my fear and not everybody else’s fear.

18:57
Dr. Maya Novak:
Mm.

18:58
Abby Wynne:
Then I’m going to have another look and see, okay, well how many dogs are actually here? How many thoughts? What are my most dominant ones and are they valid? Are they childlike? Is it the little girl wanting daddy to come and make everything okay? I have to be daddy, but I can’t be daddy when I have 15 crazy thoughts running around in circles draining me and my stomach is wide open and I’m picking up fear when I go to the supermarket just to buy a coffee or something. So, that’s what I do. If you see yourself as a container that leaks energy everywhere and energy comes in and energy comes out. The first thing you need to do is gather your wits about you, put your will into the intention that my container needs to be sealed and healed first. I’ll worry about everything else afterwards. That’s when you start to empower yourself. So, if you are like a car – and you say gas, petrol tank is what we call it in Ireland – you fill up the gas and you can drive, but if the gas tank is leaking, you’re not going anywhere.

20:08
Dr. Maya Novak:
Mm.

20:09
Abby Wynne:
So, you need to seal that container and then it starts to fill up by itself. So, if you’re watching now and you’re relating to this, why not try it now – see, this is what I mean when I do bits and pieces of healing work, we’ll start some healing work now. If you can imagine yourself as a container – what’s really interesting to me is when I have some clients who have very low self-worth, they don’t think highly of themselves, their container could be like a beaten up barrel that you’d find out in a wasteland somewhere. I say you’re better than that. You’re not a barrel that’s been kicked and broken. You’re not a trashcan. Just get of sense of well, what do I feel my container is made of because then we have the power to transform it. I once had somebody who thought they were a paper bag, that’s how weak they felt. If you start to visualize, you can bring in glass. You could be glass. You could be crystal. You could be like a Waterford crystal. We have this beautiful Waterford Crystal in Ireland – a vase. But if you can’t resonate with that, you’re not going to be able to stay like that for very long. So, it could just be a very simple jug or even a swimming pool. Just something, and say okay, this is my container, now I’m going to look at the walls and the integrity. It’s thinner in some places, there’s holes in other places. By bringing your mind into doing this work, automatically you start to become calmer because you’re busy doing something with most of your focus. So, feeling in your body, no matter how much pain you’re in, you’re actually doing your work on your energy body and not your physical body. So, you don’t need to feel the pain in your kidney, if that’s what’s your – no, but it’s the energy feel around the kidney and just soothing. So, imagining – like when you’re putting up tiles and you’ve got plaster and you’re just putting plaster on the wall and you’re soothing, and it feels lovely and squishy. So, just put that in your container to soften it, to heal it, and you can even actually do the movements with your hands. You can spread it around. You have to use your imagination to get behind you because you need to also heal that behind you as well and all the way down. Just as an aside, if you’re not feeling supported or somebody is leaning too heavily on you for support, your lower back is what you need to focus on very much. So, when you’re doing this smoothing, imagining that you’re smoothing around your lower back. And you might find like vacuum cleaner hoses in there where somebody is sucking your energy out. So, just gently release those. You don’t need to know who they are, although you probably will if you start asking yourself. You don’t need to know why, but out of the generosity and kindness and compassion of your own heart and your good self, you allow this to happen and you don’t need to. Then what happens now is the integrity of the container gets thicker and softer and smoother and more even, and then we can start to fill it up with your power. So, if you’re still with me, will I keep going?

23:38
Dr. Maya Novak:
Please.

23:39
Abby Wynne:
Because when we give our power to the doctors - let’s take that power back from the doctor and look at the doctor in our mind and say, that’s a person who knows a lot of stuff about what they know. But they’re also a man or a woman who might be narrow-minded or who might not be, and they’re going on a basis of many, many people, whereas I am here and I need my power here with me. What happens then? You start to feel your power coming in. Your body might start to change. You see - well, I’m doing this on behalf of all the listeners. My stomach just made a noise. Because when you are stressed and then you start to relax, it’s your stomach that relaxes first. So, just think about this, if your stomach is tense, you’re not really digesting your food well, and you’re not getting the nutrients you need. So, you’re not feeding your body what it needs to create that space for it to heal itself. Do you see the feedback loop? So, when you stop and you say, okay, I’m not going to go into this wild crescendo of thoughts, I’m going to come and I’m going to heal my container, bringing all my power back to me, then you have that space. Do you see why people can’t meditate, Maya, because they don’t do this first. They just sit down and then they expect to be able to meditate, but they’ve got 16 dogs look at me, look at me, look at me – so jeez, I can’t meditate, I just can’t sit still!

25:16
Dr. Maya Novak:
[laughs]

25:17
Abby Wynne:
Because you can’t, of course, you can’t. There’s absolutely no surprise there that you can’t! So, anyway, you’re filling yourself up with yourselves, so we come back to that, and bring yourself back in. Then, you know what many people have not done, is they have not made a claim over their body. So, what I mean by that is to say this is my body and I decide what goes into it. And then, oh, hello body! This is my arm, and these are my hands, and this is my chest, my heart, my stomach. And you connect yourself back into your body instead of running the fuck away from it because you’re so afraid of it because it’s broken and you don’t know what to do. So, you’re giving it to everybody else to fix, and all your body wants is your attention, you’re awareness and your love.

26:08
Dr. Maya Novak:
This is so extremely important because I experienced that myself after the terrible ankle fracture in 2012. Your body changes, and very often we want to run away from it …

27:07
Abby Wynne:
Yeah.

27:07
Dr. Maya Novak:
… because it’s different, because it might look weaker, because you don’t perhaps completely like it at the moment. So, yes, being okay with whatever this shell looks like right now is so extremely important. So, thank you so much for bringing this to our awareness that the body is here, and especially our body is just a shell and it’s a vehicle.

26:52
Abby Wynne:
Well, the energy is – I see it that the body is a vessel, definitely.

26:56
Dr. Maya Novak:
Mm.

26:56
Abby Wynne:
The body – somebody, I can’t remember who, said your body is like a rental car…

27:02
Dr. Maya Novak:
Mm.

27:03
Abby Wynne:
… and you pick it up when you’re born, and you leave it back when you die. But if you connect into your body, I’m quite happy to share with this you, Maya, I’m in perimenopause right now. So, I’m not in menopause, but I’m not regular anymore with my periods, and I hadn’t had a period for three months. So, I started talking to my body, and are you okay, what’s going on? So, I sat and I brought my awareness in, and my put my hands on my womb and on my ovaries and said are you okay, do you need anything, what’s going on? It’s like, oh, I don’t know. So, I spoke directly to my body and I said, well, I’ve kind of like to get a period just to make sure everything’s working and okay. So, this super moon came out, and I got my period. I believe it’s that connection with your body, no matter who you are. Your body responds best to loving touch.

28:00
Dr. Maya Novak:
Yes.

28:01
Abby Wynne:
Whether touch be with your actual fingers, somebody else’s fingers, or just the loving touch of your own awareness where you go into that part of you and you say I see you and you’re doing okay. I would take – and I know this isn’t about fertility. But I would take my female clients into their orchard of the fallopian tubes with the ripe hanging fruit of the eggs to sit under the tree to say thank you for all of this potential, and I would love it now if one of these fruits would ripen and turn into a baby for me. And then they go into the womb and they make it the most softest beautiful loving nurturing space to hold a baby, and they’re in there instead of being far away terrified that there’s something wrong with them and they can’t conceive, right. And when you’re in there and the – when you think about it, the baby wants to be in somewhere full of love. Our body wants to be filled with love, yeah.

29:04
Dr. Maya Novak:
And think that we can absolutely take this idea and apply it to injuries and healing. It’s going to be a different kind of vision or visualization…

29:16
Abby Wynne:
Oh no, it’s the same. Let’s talk about your ankle injury. So, first of all, you have to be out of the garden with all of the yapping thoughts. You have to be in that state of calm, but then you go into your bones, and into your bodies. Now, because I have a science background, I know human anatomy, so I understand how the body works. If you don’t, I highly recommend you learn. Get an anatomy book so that you can tell the fibers and the tendons and the muscles, bringing your loving awareness into your broken ankle. You could visualize maybe splintered bone. You could visualize maybe torn muscle. And you go, oh my gosh, you’re hurting so much aren’t you, my more ankle. I’m so sorry, what can I do for you. And you can reach your ankle, if you can put your hands on it, and just bring the love in and say I will give you whatever you need to heal. And then you allow your ankle to hurt like hell if it hurts because the hurting is the healing. We suppress the pain because we don’t want to feel it, but you need to feel that pain. As the bones come together you can visualize in your mind the bits of broken bone knitting together and visualize the flow of the energy coming through your foot and up your leg and back down again, and you’re telling your body it’s okay to heal. It’s okay to heal. And it’s the same precedent as I’d say if you want a liver to cleanse itself. Again, what does your liver look like? So, imagining – I actually brought a client into his liver, it was a forest, which wasn’t growing properly, and which had litter in it so we cleaned it up. We ended up with the physical shape of the liver because we looked at the anatomy, and we were very small inside his body putting our hands on going it’s okay, it’s okay. And just by saying it’s okay, oh, you relax. It’s okay. I give my permission to be sick. I give myself permission to take as long as it takes for my body to heal itself.

31:36
Dr. Maya Novak:
Abby, I would love to ask you something else connected to this, actually. This is, after a serious injury, very often, there is a lot of emotional turmoil and I hear very often women and also men this cry being that they feel depressed. So, can we talk about this feeling of depression and what – is there also a difference between sadness or deep sadness and depression and how do we know are we really depressed or what is actually happening?

32:16
Abby Wynne:
This is wonderful. I would love to answer this. So, a serious injury where you know your life will never be same again, let’s say that that’s what we’re talking about most likely whether it be very serious and you are incapacitated in some way or you’re not able to perform at the same level that you were before.

32:42
Dr. Maya Novak:
Yes.

32:43
Abby Wynne:
So, maybe you were a sportsperson and now you can no longer have a career in sports. So, what happens is that you were attached to how you identify yourself when you’re healthy, right, to be able to do all of these things the way that you always did them. So, you get this broken heart and this huge grief because your identity is broken, literally, and you don’t know who you are anymore. What happens is you have a shock from that and the shock ripples through your whole core, your whole self, and some people are more resilient than others. Shamanically, when we have a shock, when it actually hits you - I’m never going to be able to skydive again, I’m never going to be able to walk again, I’m not the person that I thought I was. That’s a huge shock. Part of your soul essence jumps out and leaves you, okay, and it might not want to come back for a while. It could be the vitality of you in your 20s who was so hopeful and excited about all the things and then realizing you’re never going to have those things, and say, well, eff this, I’m out of here. Well, if we go back to the container for a minute, Maya. Depending on how much life force energy you have in your container, okay. Does that make sense after what we’ve been doing?

34:13
Dr. Maya Novak:
Yes.

34:14
Abby Wynne:
If that soul piece that leaves, and you still have some left in you - you still have life force energy, then you’re sad - and I’m not belittling this at all, okay. You are sad, you’re heavy, you’re crushed, you’re in grief, but you still have a reserve of life force energy inside that container. Now, if, during that shock that you got, all of your life force leaves you, and you have hardly anything left, that’s depression. Do you see the difference?

34:55
Dr. Maya Novak:
So, does that mean…

34:56
Abby Wynne:
Because you are flat.

34:57
Dr. Maya Novak:
Yes. May I ask you, so what you are describing here, that everything has left, does that mean that there are suicidal thoughts or it’s not necessarily that there are suicidal thoughts?

35:11
Abby Wynne:
Well, let’s get back to how much life force energy do you actually have.

35:19
Dr. Maya Novak:
We'll continue in just a moment. I wanted to quickly jump in for two things. First, thank you for tuning in. And second, I’m sure you have at least one friend, colleague, or family member who would very much appreciate this episode. So share it with them and help us spread the word. Now let’s continue…

35:41
Abby Wynne:
So, obviously, everybody’s different. If you – let’s say – I don’t like to say you’re born with a disadvantage, I don’t. But let’s say you’re born into a family where your parents have a tendency for depression where – this is the psychotherapy part, where there’s alcoholism and clinical depression and anxiety all around you. The chances are that you have a low level of life force energy to begin with, that your learned behaviors that come from watching the patterns of your parents do not facilitate vibrant health and an increase in your life force energy. You don’t know to do that.

36:21
Dr. Maya Novak:
Mm.

36:22
Abby Wynne:
And then you get this shock, and then all of your life force energy goes. What’s the point in being alive? I’m looking at these most beautiful flowers and I just don’t care. I don’t care. That’s when you go into that suicidal ideation when you’re like what is the point. Now, I’m speaking from experience, and I have felt depression twice in my life and I can tell the difference between depression and sadness. The only reason, why for the second time I felt depressed, why I stayed, was because I have children and I would not do it to them. So, I told my husband I’m feeling like this, and just him knowing that I felt like this was enough to get me through those days. And then I started calling my soul to come back to me. Come back, come back, come back. What do I need to do for you to come back? So, instead of me going, ‘oh, the world is terrible, and I don’t…’, I said where’s my soul gone, bring my soul back to me. That’s what I focused on and I think I stayed depressed for about two weeks, three weeks. Most people stay depressed for years. I was going all around the world getting scraps and bits and pieces of my life force energy to get keep me going, knowing that I would get through it bearing and enduring the feeling of it. But what to do people do in the mainstream who don’t work shamanically, or I should say magically, or with the soul? They go to the doctor and they get the medicine that suppresses the thoughts, it suppresses the body, and they’re going around like zombies not feeling anything. So, you’re not anxious, but you’re not happy either. You’re not suicidal, but you’re not invigorated either. I believe 100 percent that depression is a spiritual sickness. Now, yes, you can have a chemical imbalance in your body, and yes, the chemicals can actually help people who cannot make certain hormones and chemicals for themselves. But I actually believe that there’s a very small number of people in that category and that most people don’t want to look at their weaknesses, don’t want to live a life based on truth. They grow up in a house with these learned behaviors. They go to college or get a job because they think they have to do it. They marry the person that they think they should do and their whole life is living somebody else’s dream.

38:46
Dr. Maya Novak:
So, let me ask you this. Let’s say that a person is either really sad, in deep sadness after this injury or depressed. Now, is this something that has happened right now? Or does this deep sadness or depression mean that there was already something happening in the past or that this is coming from the past and it’s right now just perhaps amplified? So, it’s bigger because of the situation?

39:22
Abby Wynne:
Well, I mean it depends on how attached the person was to what they thought they were or who they thought they were. How attached are they to their identity? And it’s also about the levels of life force energy resilience that they had before the accident happened. It’s also about their capacity to learn and the ability to let go of learned behaviors. That’s a really difficult thing to do because this is how your mom and dad always did it. This is how I’m doing it and now I have to change this?

39:55
Dr. Maya Novak:
Mm.

39:58
Abby Wynne:
It’s like bereavement. It is a bereavement. If somebody that you love deeply dies, you can’t change that and you can’t stop loving them. So, life changes and you have a scar. It goes from a gaping open wound into a scar that you learn how to live with. But there has to be a point in time where you allow yourself to accept it. And you don’t accept it and move on and forget about it. You accept it and it changes you, and this is the same for illness. It changes you. But you have a choice. You have a choice to accept it and work with what you have or lament about what you don’t have and go back into childlike behavior wanting something that you just can’t have, and people get trapped in that. People get stuck in that. And then when you’re going outwards with your power and everybody else’s idea and you’re disempowered and you’re angry at yourself, it can be very difficult to pull yourself back in. So, again, I recommend to anybody to just start with the garden with all those thoughts going on, and as the adult that you are going, ‘Hang on a minute. How many of these thoughts are actually mine?’ My best friend came to visit me while I was sick and she said this, and I have kept it in my as my thought and it’s not actually my thought. I let you go! Get out of my garden! That’s not what I really think. This is what I’m talking about, the bravery to be able to recognize what’s true. It takes strength to do that. Somebody can plant an idea in your head because it’s said with such solidity. You’ll never get better. You’re never going to walk again. You’re never going to do this. You’re never going to do that. There’s something about the tone of that thought sticks in you. Take it out. If it feels like someone stuck a knife in you, pull out that knife. It hurts to pull it out and you bleed, but then you get better and you take the knife and say, that’s not mine, and you throw it away. You say, okay, I want to get better. I’m going to get better. Now, what’s really interesting is the power of thought and mind over healing starts with the person raising their life force energy, okay. So, if you’re depressed, you can’t do this. You have to start from where you are. I want my life force energy back. I want my soul to come back. That’s where you start. But when you’re here, and you’re just removing all the thoughts that aren’t yours, then you say, okay, I’m going to bless my body, and my body knows what to do, and I’m going to sit here and hold myself and bring compassion in and love myself through this. And I’m not giving power to the doctor giving me how many months they’ve given me. Or for a diagnosis to tell me in a book what I should be experiencing now because I’m not that. And to start thinking of yourself as a flexible dynamic plastic being. And anyone who disputes what I’m saying must remember that they used to say neural cells did not grow back, and now they’ve changed their mind. Why? Why is that? They don’t know everything.

43:33
Dr. Maya Novak:
Exactly.

43:34
Abby Wynne:
You can prove them wrong, but you need the strength and the conviction and the power behind your will to tell your body I believe in you, you can do this. Look at those stroke people, the people who lose half of their body and they put the mirror beside them. And so you’re moving your right hand and you’re telling your brain it’s your left hand moving and it starts to work because why? You have set your intention and you’re supporting yourself. You’re the coach out on the field, come on, you can do it! You have to do that for yourself; otherwise, what’s the point? And you’re not going to do that when you’re depressed, right?

44:15
Dr. Maya Novak:
Beautifully said. Now, just concluding this sadness and depression thing, Abby, what would you say to someone who is losing hope about their healing?

44:30
Abby Wynne:
I would say human beings, we’re all the same. And instead of filling up your head with despair, to start looking for stories that will motivate you, stories of success. Caroline Myss has a wonderful book, which is all about letters that people wrote to her about miracles that happened for them. So, let’s say even with your illness, whatever that might be, there’s not enough examples of people who recovered from that particular thing for you to gather your strength from. Go to something like her book where angels step in and rescue babies from dying. Something to spark your belief in the magic that is really here, and start playing beautiful music in the background. Turn off the news. Fill your world with color and light and remind yourself of all the things you love. Then you accept your body as it is. Talk to your bad knee and tell your bad knee you’re not bad because the word ‘bad’ is a bad energy. You’re not broken; you just need a bit of extra love and help. How does that feel? I’m going to give my sore knee, my knee needs extra love, I’m going it the love that it needs. You go into your knee, and you go into the tissues of your knee and your mind, and you see yourself massaging them stroking them, you can do this, you can do this. As you start to let your body heal a little bit more every day, not the way you want it, not to your agenda – oh, I’m going to be better by Christmas. How do you know? So, you’re going to be a little bit better every day. You don’t decide you’ll be up and walking around again by the end of the summertime. You don’t know that. You give your body that space to heal. I have a colleague in Ireland, she’s a Reiki Master Teacher, and she destroyed her hand completely with glass and she severed all of the nerves across her whole hand, and her hand and her fingers just wouldn’t work. The doctors said forget about it, you’ll never get use of your hand. She did Reiki on her hand for eight, 10, 12 hours a day. When she couldn’t do Reiki on her own hand anymore, she had her friends do Reiki on her hand for her. Reiki is energy healing. Within six months, she could do this, and within a year, her hand was exactly the way it was before the accident. The doctors were like, oh my god; I’ve never seen anything like this! So, if you want to show somebody something that they’ve never seen before, you have to put the effort in. She wouldn’t be doing Reiki on her hand and not believing it was going to work. And she wouldn’t be doing Reiki on her hand and telling her hand, come on, I have until Friday at 4:00 o’clock, you better be better by then. You take as long as you need to get better, and I’m here to give you what you need.

47:39
Dr. Maya Novak:
What I’m experiencing with all healing – all the healing that I’ve done, but also with my clients, is that yes, we all want to have that end result and the best result, but what really brings that magic is the journey, and what you’re actually doing on this journey, and how you are actually changing and molding. I mean, this, for me, is the biggest gift. Not the end result, even though it’s amazing, let’s say it’s amazing, but what is actually happening in those days, weeks, months, perhaps years.

48:14
Abby Wynne:
Well, that’s exactly right, Maya. That is exactly right - always looking for the gifts, as painful as it might be. I was sick for nearly two years and I’m still not 100 percent. I have a problem in my ear which was like a fire engine came and parked inside my head with the siren going off, and that was the second time I wanted to kill myself, I was that depressed with. But I’m a year and a half later, and I still hear a noise but I can bear it now and it’s come right down in volume because it’s healing. But I would like it to be healed very quickly and it’s not healing quickly. And what this noise is telling me is to slow down. It’s telling me that I don’t need to do all the things that I think I need to do. It’s telling me you’re not listening, what are you listening to; you’re listening to the wrong thing. And it’s also telling me, in those moments where I do have silence now that, oh my god, isn’t being alive the most incredible thing that you could possibly have. The appreciation of those moments when you’re not in pain is superb. My father, he cut his hand with a glass bottle also. It’s interesting, it’s similar, but he played guitar and he couldn’t play his guitar anymore. He was devastated. But my daughter plays guitar now. So, he was watching her play her guitar and he decided her guitar was too big for her little body – because she’s only 10 – so he took her to the music store to buy her a smaller guitar and he saw a very simple guitar that caught his eye. He took it down and he could play that one, where he couldn’t play his very expensive guitar at home. He realized my idea of what I should be doing and what I can actually do is different. So, he bought himself the cheap guitar and he can play, and play, and play because of the shape, because of the way it is. So, we can be our own worst enemies at times by deciding it’s that guitar that I have to play. With this hand, it means I cannot play any guitar. Do you know what I’m saying here? Because forget the cheap one, I would never get a cheap guitar! He said feck it and he got the cheap guitar and now he’s having great fun playing the cheap guitar and his hand is working. So, we get in our own way by our ideas of how things have to be, and that’s another gift is when we get out of the way and say, okay, what can I do, what’s reality?

50:56
Dr. Maya Novak:
Exactly.

50:58
Abby Wynne:
And the appreciation. So, let’s say with your ankle, you can’t climb up a mountain anymore, but it doesn’t mean you can’t actually go up a mountain. It doesn’t mean you can’t get outside. You do what you can do with what you have, and in appreciation for that you connect into love and you get back your soul. Then you step away from being depressed and you find other ways to express yourself in the world, and the world becomes beautiful again.

51:26
Dr. Maya Novak:
Exactly. Yes, it’s everything. Changing the perception is basically everything. It’s how we talk to ourselves, what kind of thoughts, but just changing – those small tweaks can make a huge difference.

51:42
Abby Wynne:
Can I just share – before we started, we acknowledged that we are in the time of the Coronavirus and Matt Haig – if anybody watching this has not come across Matt Haig, Matt Haig has written the most wonderful book called Reasons to Stay Alive. So, if you’re depressed and you feel suicidal, pick up his book and just open to a page and there will be some reason to get you through today because you’re only here today. But what he did today was he put up an Irish newspaper and an English newspaper side by side. The English newspaper was a picture of Boris Johnson, and it says above ‘People are going to die from the Coronavirus’. And the Irish newspaper was our Irish Prime Minister, now we call him the Taoiseach, it’s an Irish word so you might know how to pronounce it – the Prime Minister, and he’s standing up strong and he says, “We will get through this. We’re going to work together and everything’s going to be okay’. You see them side by side, and this is how you approach illness. Everybody’s going to die. Now, you can’t do this – you’re leaking power all over the place when you’re thinking like that. We’re going to get together, we’re going to get through this – yes, it makes me proud to be Irish today!

53:02
Dr. Maya Novak:
I would love to ask you what is your number one advice that you would give someone who is right now after an injury and is healing?

53:14
Abby Wynne:
I have an exercise that I like to do. My television set at home has so many wires and plugs plugged into so many different sockets, and you know yourself how messy it can get with all the wires and everything.

53:26
Dr. Maya Novak:
Yes!

53:27
Abby Wynne:
So, imagine that you are wires and plugs and well plugged into ideas, plugged into people and relationships, plugged into your expectations of what you should be compared to what you’re not. Just pick one, follow the wire from you. So, it could be from your heart going out. Unplug it, and imagine the wire dissolving back into you. The doctors that you heard talk behind your back and say, oh, they’ll never get better – plug out from that and bring it back in and say, yeah, but I’m me and they’ve never met me before. The relationships that are draining, plug out from those and bring your wires back in so that you bring your personal power into your container.

54:23
Dr. Maya Novak:
Beautiful.

54:24
Abby Wynne:
Because you make bad decisions, everybody does, when your energy is low and you’re anxious. So, promise yourself – this would be my number one tip – that you will not make any decisions about anything unless your life force energy is above a quarter, if that’s the most you can do. If you can do better – I mean, me personally, because I do this all the time, I like to be over half full. So, you can imagine a percent. What percentage are you full? So, if you’re depressed, you could be two percent. After a wonderful day and beauty and you’re feeling content you could be 60-70 percent, you’re still missing 30 percent, right. But at 70 percent, the quality of the decisions that you make for yourself and for your life are totally different to when you’re 20 percent.

55:15
Dr. Maya Novak:
Absolutely.

55:16
Abby Wynne:
So, that’s what I would suggest because decisions that you make affect your body, affect your healing process, it affects everything. It also affects your relationship with yourself and then your relationship with everybody else.

55:30
Dr. Maya Novak:
Exactly. This is beautifully said, Abby. Now, we could talk and continue for – I’m absolutely sure for another hour or two hours! But let’s slowly wrap this up. I do have one last question for you that is a bit out of the box. It’s a bit of a different kind of question, and I know that you are out of the box as well! So, imagine being injured right now and you know that the recovery is going to take you a while to get where you want to go, and it’s not always going to be easy. Now, in this moment you can choose one of two gifts or one of two options. Option number one is to go through this recovery process and do everything that you can in your power to heal in the best possible way, and then at the end, you are gifted with the power of preventing any further injuries. Or gift number two or option number two is that you go back in time, prevent this injury, but then you’re not completely sure what’s going to happen in the future, perhaps tomorrow a new day for a new injury. So my question here is which one would you choose and why?

56:54
Abby Wynne:
As you speak, I love the magical thinking, but I don’t think that we are superheroes…

57:02
Dr. Maya Novak:
Mm.

57:03
Abby Wynne:
… in this life. I don’t believe that we have control over anything and we would be idiots to assume that something will never happen because that’s probably the one thing that will happen. So, what I do every time is go straight to god and say I trust and know that what’s best is coming for me, and it’s my willingness to accept it is what I need to work on. So, I’m sorry, but my answer is not on your list there!

57:34
Dr. Maya Novak:
No, no, no – the question is out of the box, the answers are out of the box, there is no wrong answer, absolutely not.

57:43
Abby Wynne:
But you know what’s very interesting, Maya, is when I work on emotional healing with a client we do go back in time, but we don’t change what happened. So, if you could imagine a trauma happens to a client when they’re very young, a grown-up client travels back in time to visit the child client who is in trauma, with angels and love, and we put our arms around the child and we say we made it. You get through this and you’re going to be okay, and take the healing now, and take the love that I have and know that whatever way you handled this was the best thing that you could do, and I totally get it and I totally understand, and we made it because I’m here. And what happens, it’s like setting a bomb off of love that ricochets up through their lives and it’s the self-worth, self-confidence, that rises up and then the life force energy just comes pouring back in. So, you can travel through time with the emotional level. You can’t change, necessarily, the physical experience. But to honor and acknowledge the body’s plasticity. I have a healing meditation on my website where we go in and heal the nerves, and heal the bones, and heal the muscles, and the spaces in between the organs where there’s nothing, and bringing all the light into the body, into those dark places. If you spend a half an hour doing that every day, you feel so fresh and so vital. It’s much better than worrying. So, you get to choose. Do you want to spend half an hour a day worrying? Get back out into that garden and look and look and see what are all those dogs are doing and which ones are yours, and how do you train them so that they don’t destroy everything. That’s what you need to do!

59:25
Dr. Maya Novak:
Exactly! Beautifully said. Abby, where can people find more about you?

59:32
Abby Wynne:
Oh, they can just Google me. I think I’ve got lots going on now. My website is abby-wynne.com. I have a learning management system there called Abby’s Online Academy, so, you can even just type that in. I do healing sessions on the internet every month. They’re affordable, it’s only 12 Euros, and you get the replay and you can play them over and over again. So, these are energy clearing sessions where we basically heal the container and bring back the life force energy. So, all these things that I’ve been saying that you can do, if you’re going I really want to do that. I really want to do that but I don’t know how to do it, but I really want to – come and find me because I do it for you with you – teaching you how to do it yourself so that you can then do it like this because you know what you’re doing. So, it’s like when you read my bio there at the beginning, I have a foundation, a structure to guide you, I do. I have that to teach you how to do it. So, all you have to do is just decide yeah, I want to change how I think, I want to learn how to do this. Come and find me and I’ll show you how.

01:00:39
Dr. Maya Novak:
Fabulous! Abby, thank you so much for this amazing interview and for being here and sharing light and love in these stressful situations that many times injuries bring, so thank you, again.

01:00:55
Abby Wynne:
Thank you for asking me.

01:00:58
Dr. Maya Novak:
Thank you for tuning into today’s episode with Abby Wynne. If you haven’t done it yet, subscribe to the podcast on whatever platform you’re using to tune in. Of course, also remember to share this episode with your loved ones and help them out. To access show notes, links, and transcript of today’s talk go to mayanovak.com/podcast. To learn more about The Mindful Injury Recovery Method visit my website mayanovak.com and find my book Heal Beyond Expectations on Amazon. Until next time – keep evolving, blooming, and healing.

Love and gratitude xx
Dr. Maya

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